I couldn't find anywhere appropiate to post this so I made a thread. I don't really like making threads unless it's nessasary.
Anyhow, my 1st question is on the subject of livery.
We all know Thomas is blue, Henry is gren etc, BUT! Do we know what coloures the engines are 'officialy'
It's stated in one of the books that Duck retained his number 5741 and his GWR livery, but how many variations do you see?
If you look at the illustrations, paints on scale models and indeed the real things you will see about 5 different versions of Great Western Green. One will be darker than the other, one will be a different colour altogether and quite light, another will be So dark it looks like racing green.
With the other engines there is even less descriptions.
I presume Donald and Douglas are 'Caledonian Blue'
But Thomas / Edward and Gordon? I think it could be 'BR passenger Express Blue' But to me that looks a little to dark and purple. On the other hand it could be 'Garter Blue' as seen on Mallard. I think Garter Blue for Them maybie?
Henry / Percy etc: Lets be honest, how many different greens have you seen the LNER engines in? Flying Scotsman / Green Arrow / Mayflower etc All vary from shade to shade in what is listed as ' LNER Apple Green' AND in there own paint coats from different times! I think a lighter shade for Henry and Co' maybie?
So I ask this: What can we standardise the Sodor engines livery's as official?
Thomas/Edward/Gordon/Donald/Douglas look to be in a darker livery than LNER Garter Blue, but it's far too light to be GER Ultramarine Blue. It looks to be a shade of CR/LMS Royal Blue (as seen on LMS Streamliners). It is stated in Book 28 (Fire Engine) that the Twins' old livery was "nae sae dark as this". Henry/Percy are in a variant of LNER Apple Green, by the looks of things. James could well be in Furness Railway Indian Red - there were no locos in real life (of real railway companies rather than industrial companies) that were in basic primary/secondary colours. Duck/Oliver are in BR Brunswick Green, with GWR branding. Toby is in his GER/LNER tram Chocolate and Blue colour scheme.
Well, real railways changed their colours all the time, and it could be that the NWR is no different?
Each of the artists only submits their 'impression' of what it looks like, only the words are intended to be taken as the ultimate truth. A story can be re-illustrated in a completely different way whilst still adhereing to the words - evidenced by the mysterious saddletank in Clive Spong's troublesome trucks (In the 'never before seen characters' thread).
true, but the livery problem persists with the tv series, models and real life aswell, so i know its open to interpretation but i wish there were some info as a guid line to base it of. i.e some shade of 'apple green' as aposed to malachite etc, wse need cacon info!
I'd say the NWR probably just go "Oh, here, have some green paint!". Henry's a good example. His colour has been pretty light at some stages (Enterprising Engines) and pretty dark in alot of Spong's illustrations.
So, I don't think the NWR worry too much about livery. If this is a modelling issue, just go for something close to it, because the NWR don't seem to care. Also, note that James' stripes have changed from black to blue - is this a case of the engine deciding for themselves, perhaps?
Don't give me insistent humming,
Horns and bells, and distant drumming,
I want steam, that's under pressure
As it rises to a scream!
I believe James' stripes are purple Amber, not blue.
As for liveries, I just go with whatever looks either best or most like an official picture. Engine colours are pretty much different in all different type of TTTE merchandise, so I guess there's no official one colour- otherwise I'd imagine all the merchandise would have the one colour used..maybe.
Post by FlyingScotsman on Jul 26, 2007 17:48:16 GMT
I think the engines are painted in liveries that don't necessarily correspond with real world colours. Toby, of course, is GER chocolate and blue after coming to Sodor. For Duck and Oliver, I refer you to this site: www.gwr.org.uk/Liveries.html It looks to me like they wear the 1934-42 livery. Duck wears the later GWR, Oliver has the roundel. It's probably as near to the Swindon variant as possible, STH being a Swindon man himself.
I think the engines are painted in liveries that don't necessarily correspond with real world colours
Okay, I know I'm reading this wrong. Real world colours? Colours are colours. The spectrum doesn't change on paper...
Also, I've noticed that Annie, Clarabel, and the other orange coaches have changed in Christopher's books. They seem much redder in More About Thomas the Tank Engine, and orange in Thomas Comes Home. Also, now they have a yellow stripe.
I think this shows the change in liveries - they keep the same general colours, but change slightly.
Don't give me insistent humming,
Horns and bells, and distant drumming,
I want steam, that's under pressure
As it rises to a scream!
liveries change all the time even with the same name..lner apple green is different to another lner apple green, but this is the thing for example, can officialise henry as 'some shade of apple green' as aposed to malachite etc, we need some form of 'official' guide line
Hmm but which to base the prototype on? Take Percy for example... green... Dalby says almost lime green, Kenney Slightly darker, and Edwards about the same. HOWEVER The reverend's own model of Percy is much darker, near to Brunswick Green! Should we take his models as the point of reference? Thomas to me looks way too pale if this is the case.
Knuckles, Brunswick Green is the GWR Green, also known as British Racing Green, officially a lighter shade of a variation called "Deep Brunswick Green", the latter was the green seen on BR Express Locos, being slightly darker than the GWR version. James is lined in Blue, not Purple, as far as I can remember, however the red may affect how the blue looks (red + blue = purple).
Post by FlyingScotsman on Jul 29, 2007 9:16:29 GMT
Rander's right, James is lined in blue, with brass boiler bands. Dalby depicts him as being lined in black, though, so you have a choice.
Re GWR green, it's also worth noting (as I heard from a former railwayman some years back) that it wasn't always the same shade of green. Wolverhampton's paint mix was more blue than Swindon's, so the engine's precise colour depended where it had been overhauled. Hence what I said about the Swindon variant.
I think we can quite easily create a 'history' of NWR Liveries.
Quickly, let's break down the engines we know of:
Blue: Thomas Edward Henry (for a period) Gordon (presumably in GNR green on arrival, painted thereafter) Donald & Douglas (BR goods black on arrival)
Red: James (black on arrival, repainted shortly thereafter)
Green: Henry (for a time at arrival and onwards from an unknown date - the IoS contradicts itself here - it says the Flying Kipper accident occured in 1939 (and he was green at the time), but Percy only arrived on the railway in 1949 (allegedly shortly after Henry ceased wearing blue), even though he was present at Henry's return from Crewe) Percy (from arrival onwards - he notes he's always been painted green)
Now, the RWS begins in 1923, the year Gordon arrived on the railway. Contextually, the NWR is a young company - it has only existed for 8 years, and for the first 3 of those years it was probably government operated.
In 1923 the line is in a crisis - following the 1923 grouping it retains independance, but like the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway and the Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway it is very much the small-fish on the railway map of the British Isles, there is a locomotive shortage, finaces are probably dicey and the company is resisting the takeover attempts of the newly-formed LMS - to try and draw in some revenue and give the railway a more definitive identity, Hatt probably tried to create a commercial image for the railway - a unique style and appearance. As such all engines are painted in a blue livery with red banding and lining - this is the standard NWR livery.
When Henry arrives however he's in green (Wilbert originally intended Henry to belong to another company according to Brian Sibley) - possibly there's been no oppurtunity to paint him out of his pre-grouping original livery. And just after he comes 'out of the tunnel' he's painted blue - allegedly at his own request, but curiously now all NWR engines are in blue (who wants to bet that if Henry asked to be green Hatt would have tried to talk him round to blue).
When James arrives however some years later he, like Henry is in his old livery (L&YR / LMS goods black) - after a serious accident he's painted red, the only engine on the railway in this livery - it's worth noting that he's given the red paint to cheer him up after the accident, as an ego-boost as it were by making him stand out (and heaven knows it worked too well) - several times however he's threatened with blue paint (the standard livery) for his misdemenours - and finally told he deserves to keep his red livery, having earned it.
James thus remains the only engine (we know of) that doesn't wear the standard blue, until Henry is repainted in green at his own request (possibly to establish his own sense of indentity). Gordon however seems to have become attatched to his regal blue (and was probably glad to be the only big engine in that livery when Henry buggered off back to green).
On Percy's arrival he's in green too (and later says he's always been this way) - the question of repainting him never arises - it's possible that Hatt has realised by this time that the engines equate their liveries with their identities. Thus on Toby's arrivial he is restored to his former GNR chocolate-and-blue splendour from the more drab BR colours.
Duck is the next arrival, and all logic dictates he should arrive in BR livery, except by this point Charles Hatt has inherited the role of regional controller - remember that this young man was apprenticed at Swindon works, and presumably had Duck restored to GWR livery because of a personal fondness for that company, as well as Duck's own pride in his heritage. The same goes for Oliver when he arrives. Again, the engines have a desired colouration, and from previous experience in locomotive psychology, the controller agrees.
It's similar with Donald and Douglas - they choose blue because of its similarity to the old Caledonian passenger livery that they never got to carry - as they note though, they are in NWR blue, which is darker than the Caledonian livery.
From this, we can see that the standard NWR livery is mid-to-darkish-blue with red banding - if the engine is uncomfortable with this though, then alternates can be accomodated - however, Percy, Henry, James and the GWR pair are very much the exception, not the rule - my guess is that majority of NWR engines are blue (also note that engines like Henry, Donald and Douglas have requested blue at some point - almost as if to belong to the NWR family).
Diesel livery does seem standardised to some degree though - Bear and Boco have the same olive-greenish colour, with slight detailling differences (Bear has cream/white window frames for example) - Daisy is also in this shade, but because of her semi-coach nature, she carries the same yellow stripe under her window frames as does the coaching stock.
Post by FlyingScotsman on Jul 30, 2007 19:36:54 GMT
I assumed the diesels just wore BR green. Admittedly the shade used by artists tends to be lighter than in real life, but in terms of the detail it's identical.
Also, it's worth noting that when Bear and Oliver arrived, the NWR was to all intents and purposes a preserved railway. The notion of a corporate identity was probably irrelevant at that stage, so they were just painted in their old liveries accordingly.
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